Exercise in futility - schooling a welsh cob

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carthorse

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If it wasn't for the fact Jim needs him then I'd cheerfully have given Little Un away this afternoon :redcarded:

LU is a truly excellent hack - polite, responsive, bombproof, carries himself & very easy to ride. He enjoys hacking.

The school is a very different story.

Today he had full scale welsh tantrum over a trot circle. All I wanted was a 20m circle in a reasonable rhythm & outline, but would he even consider it? Would he hell. It ended up with 2 fairly serious attempts at bucking me off & me so furious that I didn't trust myself to stay on him. So I got off & lunged him for 15 minutes (which was how long it took him to get over himself & stop stropping) then got back on & carried on. Eventually we did do it, but not before some more evasions & me ending up giving him a kick & telling him to get his bleep bleep backside into gear :stomp: .

He really is an argumentative little git when things don't go his way. Having watched Vic's lesson on him a few weeks ago I now know it isn't just me winding him up because he showed flashes of it with her when she was made to get after him a bit, basically he doesn't like the school - I think he can't see the point - & doesn't intend to play. He makes me see red, there's something about the attitude that infuriates me past all rhyme & reason.

Plan is to do a bit of long reining with him in the school, sometimes before I ride & sometimes instead of riding. Plenty of hacking as I can keep working on some things there. Try a different bit just in case he isn't happy with that, probably a french link but maybe Jim's mullen Myler. And practice thinking very calm thoughts, though part of me thinks the little shit might just need it explaining to him, in very little words, that he is NOT in charge & if it comes to that it won't be a pretty discussion.

Does anyone have any other ideas, other than leave him as a hack & let him go however he wants if we do go in the school? Poles are a no-no, he thinks they're the work of the devil, & he has no interest whatsoever in jumping. Back & teeth are up to date, I'll be taking a good look at his saddle tomorrow but I don't think that's the issue though I'll get it checked soon anyway. I don't want to turn him into a dressage pony, but being able to work in the school would be useful. The school itself doesn't stress him, he'll happily lunge & long rein there.
 
how old is he?

Unfortunately being opinionated and extremely clever is just one of the traits of the welsh cob, but when he remembers his manners, he will try his heart out for you.

I have similar conversations with my welsh part bred (she is at least 3/4 welsh), and I have a job convincing people that she is a pb.

I would say that you are right to be taking the "I will not have the mickey taken out of me" attitude, and to be of the thought that you won't get into an argument, because there is no argument to be had - you are in charge and that's it.

Try and read the little tell tale signs that he's about to throw a wobbly - things like dropping a shoulder and trying to evade your aids, and get your leg on.

My other suggestion would be to put a few poles out just as something for him to think about every so often and change exercises regularly

I always think that the intelligence and courage of a welsh is both a blessing and a curse
 
No poles, bitsnpieces, definitely no poles! And I wouldn't call him clever either, normally he's a real "Tim, nice but dim" laddie.

Putting my leg on was what provoked today's outburst, he was happy bouncing on the spot in a pretty shape but had no intention of taking it forward - he can & does out hacking - & when given a slight nudge decided to object. He then objected quite strongly to my objection about his objection :giggle:. He knows he won't get away with it but he just has to try - I think he's entering his Kevin year (he's coming up 7, but has always been a little backward so is probably finally being a 5yo :rolleyes:)
 
carthorse said:
If it wasn't for the fact Jim needs him then I'd cheerfully have given Little Un away this afternoon :redcarded:

He really is an argumentative little git when things don't go his way.

basically he doesn't like the school - I think he can't see the point - & doesn't intend to play. He makes me see red, there's something about the attitude that infuriates me past all rhyme & reason.
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In regards to the first sentence,you know where I am if that thought enters your head again:biggrin::tongue:

In regards to the rest,well I suspect that's partly the joy of welshies lol,and why I actually don't usually like them,but make an exception for LU of course as he's just perfect:angel: despite being a welshie,and nothing you post about him will convince me otherwise BTW,I am in denial where your pretty boy is concerned:wink:

On a more serious note,perhaps you hit the nail on the head with your comment about not liking the school,and maybe he's a bit more clever than you think and really has figured out there is no point?? There is a point as far as us humans are concerned of course,but from a horse POV the smart ones do quite often figure out that there's not a lot in it for them other than work,and start finding all sorts of tricks to evade.

I sympathise with the being infuriated,I can be guilty of finding silly behaviour incredibly annoying,especially when it's down to attitude,it's almost like a challenge isn't it,see who is the most stubborn lol
I think though that with the welshie attitude and reputation for being obstinate you may have a fight on your hands to win the battle,although I have no doubt from the type of person you seem to be that you will eventually win the war:wink:
 
Move up to me & you can hack & play with him all you like devonlass - he's still a perfect hack & a sweetie to handle!

I'll work through it in the end, & I even suspect that when I do he'll decide he doesn't mind the school at all - he loves praise and fuss & he'll earn a lot of it if he puts in the slightest effort. It just might take a while!
 
LindaAd when I said his back check was up to date I did mean it, itwas checked the beginning of last week! A few minor bits found but nothing major & anyway these weren't tight turns, if he was struggling with them then something is really wrong & I'd have noticed that. His saddle will be checked soon but I'll have a good look at it when I'm on today, I know enough to spot major problems.

My gut feeling is still that it's attitude.
 
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I'll be following this thread with interest. My Joy (another welshie) is exactly the same. She really doesn't do the whole schooling things and unfortunately she's paired with the wrong owner as I don't like it either. She knows I don't, she's not thick, and so if I do try schooling her Ihave to be be damn sure I'm in the right frame of mind to following through with my intentions otherwise I know I'm training her to be worse and worse.

On the other hand, we both love to school out on hacks when we are both at out most relaxed and I get a lot from doing so. Trouble is with that is that I don't have anywhere to work on a circle.
 
Today I'm wishing I'd just given up & taken him for a hack because he pulled out the stable this morning dog lame :( . I think somewhere in all the lunging tantrums he's made himself very sore - the surface is ok if you use it sensibly but once you start tearing around & spinning at speed it becomes incredibly deep & heavy, & he was going so fast that there were several times when I really thought he was going to go over. He almost looks laminitic, but I don't think it's that as he was fine last night. Welshies!

Since he loosened up for being out in a very sparse paddock for a couple of hours I've given him a bute in a handful of bran & left him out with the sun on his back. I've also took him off the mostly ryegrass hay (the only type I can get now) that I've been soaking for him & put him back on my rapidly dwindling supply of meadow hay which I'll also soak for him.

Joyscarer we're an even worse combination - I love schooling & he hates it. At least you & Joy are in agreement!
 
I hack from a RS so I experience horses that are fine to hack but arent used in the school. In summer we can hack far enough to use a "school" an enclosed area on the commons, or use a meadow as if it were a school.

Some horses are not used in the school because of previous injury but since you have ruled that out, my first thought would be the horses previous training and early life and first backing?

It is not as simple as all that to have a horse that is a trouble free and generous hack - that too is learned behaviour. So congratulate yourself. A horse that is used mainly for school lessons may well be nappy when asked to hack and need to be taught how?

You asked for ideas. So here goes.
In your place, I am afraid that I would not do much of what you are doing, which is conventional lunging and riding of circles since this conventional training is not altering his view of the school. In your place I would teach him that the school is quite different from what he remembers.

In our yard we can combine riding up the bridle track with going into the school - or alternate them, so that a trot or canter up the adjacent track can include going into the school for a quiet walk round. Just five minutes perhaps and then out to hack again?

We ride lesson horses that can get very stale with the lesson format. So my first thought in the school is to give the horses something fresh to think about, make the direction unpredicatable. Or simply relax and ride large as if out on a hack - sometimes trotting a long way , replicating the way I ride out hacking. To have some fun.
Start with just five or ten minutes. Maybe only in walk. Do something different every time. It may take some months, but you are brain washing him to see the school in a different light - enticing him into some happiness there?

At the same time, since most of my learning to ride was done out hacking, you could (with tact, dont go to extremes) insert some short bits of "schooling" into your hacks. I dont know what school work you enjoy so much? But I do extact transitons, shorten or lengthen stride, bit of leg yield and shoulder in - not all at once of course. And even out hacking one can ask for a particular lead in canter. And alter one's trotting diagonals, ride sitting trot and forward seat. Dont make this an olbigation of a misery. Tiny interludes, to get your interest and his.

So what you are hoping to do is to remove bad memories of schooling and lessen the distinction for the horse between happy hacking and misery in the school.

I am not a posh rider. I dont do schooling or competitions, but I do want the horse out hacking to be listening to what I want - I need to be a dictator in the saddle.
But horses need to be taught to do what we want in tiny little increments.

For me the school is only to get my riding more precise? However, horses are our slaves. You own your horse, so if you want him to work in the school and he is fit to do so, he must comply and do anything you demand. But you have to teach him to oblige you just as carefully as if you were teaching a small child to read.
Other people on the yard may laugh at me, but my theory is that at each stage (like a human preparing to run a marathon) what we ask is so small and so insignificant that the horse complies. I stack the cards in my favour. And the more he complies to small demands and small adjustments, the more willing he becomes. So when I rode a horse that didnt like to trot a whole circle -I gradually introduced trotting just a quarter of the circle and walking the rest? My ultimate goal is to change rein in trot on a circle by trotting two small semicircles - if you see what I mean. But as with children, you start with what the horse can do?

I started riding late in life - I dont do tough or violent - I do ride clever.
 
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The thing is Skib I've had this lad since a 2yo & backed him myself so I know he's got no reason to object so strongly to the school. Here's a brief history.

As a youngster he was led out in hand, taught to long rein in the school then long reined out. At 4 he was backed in the school (I'm old enough to plan for a soft landing if I read them wrong!) with no problems but as soon as start, stop, left & right were established I started hacking him as it was clear from the outset that he was better out - from day 1 he was a polite, confident hack who thoroughly enjoyed his job.

Winter of his 4yo year he had off, then was brought back into work as a 5yo. I started by hacking him to get some fitness back, but then Jim went into hospital for colic surgery & all summer I left him to a friend to hack - as you can tell she did an excellent job with him. I did a bit of hacking with him in the autumn, then dropped his work over the winter as the weather was bad though at the time I did have access to a small indoor so I did a little bit in there with him. He wasn't exactly enthusiastic!

Started to increase his work in the spring, only to have Jim ill again. It sounds awful but if Jim's not well he takes priority & Little Un gets put on hold as far as riding goes. Again my friend did a bit with him, but she had other commitments so he was only in light work & all of that was hacking. Even so he remained a near perfect hack & it made no difference if he'd been ridden the day before or had had a week off.

He's now 7, so young but not a baby. Still the perfect hack. As you can see he's done very little in the school, just very basic schooling, plenty of long reining &, as he got older, a bit of lunging. He does understand what's being asked of him, he gets plenty of praise for getting things right, but he still doesn't like it. I try to keep sessions short, but when I want to finish on a good note that can be hard - even a polite halt seems beyond him once he's in a school!

I'm seriously thinking of giving up on the school completely. He's still very sore today, it's no good if he's going to do this to himself.
 
It sounds like he is still very much in the baby mindset when it comes to work in the school, whereas he has had lots of practice hacking.

How about taking him back a stage in the school? Go back to lunging and long reining, re-establish his balance and your authority, then maybe try again?

If he's done alot of hacking then it's probably his way of saying, "eurgh, this is more difficult, don't want to do it" or just pushing you to see if you'll back down. It doesn't sound like you were asking him anything complex enough to confuse him.

Another possibility could be that if he was hurting, just a little tweak somewhere, and therefore didn't want to work through properly - threw himself about in protest, which has then exacerbated whatever was sore and brought on the lameness?
 
Perhaps you need to buy that book "Schooling While You Hack"??? :giggle:

I've read Mark Rashid's book Horses Never Lie and he maintains that horses will always look for the path of least resistance so initially I was thinking that your boy is clearly not happy about something and was trying to tell you. However, having read the who thread so far, I'm now wondering whether Mark Rashid has ever met a Welshie!!!! :bounce:
 
I don't think going back a stage will make any difference bitsnpieces, we've tried that several times in the past but it seems that once a rider gets on then he'd rather go out. The frustrating thing is he can produce some pretty nice work in the school, but ask any more than he's willing to give on the day & he strops.

I had wondered about an underlying niggle, to me that would make sense. But if there is one I can't find it & neither have routine checks.

Domane it's so nice to get some sympathy :giggle:. As for "Horses Never Lie", well he obviously had never met my friend's welsh stallions - normally I do them in the morning & they wait quietly until after I've done mine, but if she's been up & done them early then they lie through their teeth as they create from the second I arrive & insist that they're dying of hunger & haven't seen food for years! IME horses can be very good liars indeed :giggle:
 
Thank you for taking the trouble to write his whole history carthorse - very interesting.

I fear Mark Rashid been mis interpreted. For he says that the only thing a horse knows is how to be a horse. So a horse is geared to maximise food input - a horse who asks for a second breakfast is indeed just being a horse.

However whether you school your boy or not is up to you. I think that one does have to make allowances. Like my share horse was too elderly to go on a two hour hack - the time needed to get to my favourite hacking area. So I was content to ride her closer to the yard. My other fav RS horse was injured in her youth and cant do school work - so if I want a school lesson I ride another horse.

But if I owned a horse and it irked me that the horse was dictating we should not go in the school, I think I might well pit my wits against him. If a horse is fit to walk up a track, a horse is fit to walk large once round the school and then walk up the track, if you see what I mean. I might explore what it is that stresses him in the school - but I don't do outlines and "nice work" - I am in paradise just hacking at the moment.

There is just one other thing Mark Rashid showed - not sure if it is relevant - but someone brought a pony to a clinic and wanted to teach that pony to go on the bit - and Mark warned to start in walk and look for only a few steps at a time. Building up the number of steps and not attempting trot till next day. He said it take time gradually for a horse to develop the muscles and control to go like that - and if your horse has been resting, you might therefore need to start in the school building up the number of steps and taking a week or two even before you asked for a complete circle in trot?

What upsets your horse may well be something significant, but the strop could well be because too much is being asked - more than he can manage at that particular moment?

Is it futile? I think "nice work" is meaningless. so yes it is futile. But it isn't futile to provide enough contact to support a horse - including out hacking to stop him tripping, and in the long run it is better for the horse if you encourage him to step well under with his back legs - so using turns and other school exercises to encourage that -in walk too - and in the school doesn't seem futile at all. Rashid happens to be one of the American trainers who does believe in bits and some rein contact, just for the good of the horse.
 
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May be I should explain.
Following recommendations on NR, much of my learning to ride was done through watching Mark Rashid clinics from which I have copious notes.
 
Skib said:
I fear Mark Rashid been mis interpreted. For he says that the only thing a horse knows is how to be a horse. So a horse is geared to maximise food input - a horse who asks for a second breakfast is indeed just being a horse.
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Don't worry Skib, we were just being tongue in cheek! I've read some of his books & find them very interesting, I think there's more sense in them than books by a lot of other names.

It isn't such a sacrifice if he doesn't go in the school Skib, my other lad is more than happy to work there so I can get my schooling fix that way.

On the muscles front he's regularly asked to work in an outline in walk & trot while hacking & he actually finds it easy because he's built in a fairly round, uphill way so there's not a lot of excuse there. That's why he irritates me, all I'm asking is that he replicates, for a few minutes, what he'll cheerfully do on a hack. He can & has done it in the school, it just seems that some day he choses not to?

While ultimately I could persist & make him do it - I know this lad couldn't pull a fraction of the stunts my other boy has over the years - I actually don't like to force them into a job they aren't suited for. He's a damn fine hack, if he wants to stay that then that's what I'll settle for & I know that if I don't want to hack him there are people I trust who are more than happy to do that with him.

ETA, after seeing your last post, you don't need to explain! As I said, I like what I've read of Mark Rashid's stuff & I never mind hearing other views. MY learning was initially done as a child in a traditional way more years ago than I care to mention. Since then I've owned my own for many years & when I got too big to do much with my old pony I spent far too much time scrounging extra rides on all the nutters no-one else would get on. Learning wasn't always pretty, but the lessons were to the point! And I learned to read horses, a lesson that Jim (not the welsh cob this thread is about) has refined to an art form. As I said before, at the end of the day I'd rather have a happy horse because I was playing to his strengths than a stressed one because I'm trying to turnhim into something he doesn't want to be.
 
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Crikey, someone putting a like up on this is a blast from the past! He never did decide school work was for him but remained a super hack all his life. Later down the line we found he had EMS and severe rotations suggested that had been a problem for some time before it was found, but I still think where the school was concerned he simply didn't see the point and so wasn't playing along.
 
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