Punishment

P

puzzles

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Nov 11, 2006
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What are your beliefs when it come to horsey punishment?
This came to mind after a rather heated :o comment-turned-debate with one of my closest (horsey) friends, over whether or not we would ever hit a hrose for this reason or any other. ahem,. we left bristling and with a very tense hug :rolleyes: (when it comes to debates i get evry heated and have been officially labelled as 'argumentative' in our family - but don't let that put you off, i'll be nice honest! ;) )
have you ever hit a horse even if you are/were formerly against it?
there is always the debate over whether it is right or not, but are there other reasons, etc?

so, are you :confused: or :eek: or :mad: or :D or :cool: or even :o about it?

any and every thougths appreciated and you can say more or less what you like.
 
Dolly gets told off (and a smack if it warrants it!) if she ignores one of my four main rules:

1) No kicking
2) No biting
3) No barging
4) No bucking

I don't allow dangerous behaviour. We're on a livery yard with lots of small children about and I want to know if I tie her up out of my sight for a minute, she won't injure someone.
 
Yes Dylan will get a smack if he warrants it.

He can be very bolshy and overpowering on the ground if he thinks he can get away with it. I generally will step into his space and force him back with a sharp word but he can also wack you on the head and step on my toes (frequently! :eek: ) and sometimes he will get a smack.

Looking at what showjumper said I would agree with her points.
 
why do you feel the way you do towards punishment and smacking? where did it all stem from and what is the sense you see in it?where do/would you fraw the line between 'abue' and 'acceptable punishment'/'acceptable hitting' (we can treat them as 2 separate topics). why do you smack/punish and what is the effect you hope for/get (and how does your horse react first time and now every time - differently?)

it's very fascinating hearing your points!
 
I don't punish Mayo. I've had to hit him before when he's reared up in my face when I first got him for my own safety. I was at first taught that if Mayo didn't move when yielding I shud "tap" him which wasn't a hard hit but I soon found better ways and now I would never, I might tap him when he barges but never hit. Jayne is so great like this as I've never seen her hit a horse, her ways are very subtle and its great:) It should only ever be nesercery when it gets dangerous imo now:)
 
AH!

But it's worth far more than a penny for your thougs if you consider:

"am i actually punishing my horse without realisng? does he even know? what is his concept of punishment, as a horse? how do horses 'punish' each other"

what is your concept of punishment, anyway?

Spill!

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I very rarely hit mine, to be honest. There have been one or two exceptions... not long after I bought Andy he had a coltish moment and rushed at me teeth first. He got a wallop for that. And has grown up into a very laid-back, soft-hearted stallion - even our local horse vet reckons he's not met a stallion quite so easy before, so it seems that wallop hasn't caused any lasting psychological damage!

The most recent 'bad behaviour' I've had to deal with was Rhodri getting stroppy about picking feet up. Punishing doesn't work; I looped a rope round his fetlock and used that to keep his foot off the ground, so he could wave it as much as he liked and still got nowhere. I just waited til he sussed out it was easier to be polite and let me have the foot. Job done! :)

So I suppose my philosophy is that sometimes 'punishment' is neccessary; but a lot of the time, it's more a case of figuring out how to teach or ask in a way the horse gets it...
 
puzzles said:
AH!

But it's worth far more than a penny for your thougs if you consider:

"am i actually punishing my horse without realisng? does he even know? what is his concept of punishment, as a horse? how do horses 'punish' each other"

what is your concept of punishment, anyway?

Spill!

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Punishment is something you do when someones done something wrong in your opinion so you'll punish them in a horses case that often means a hit or people do things like not giving the horse is feed which to me doesn't make sense as its not going to asssoiciate it and often it will have no idea what its done wrong or why its been hit or not given its feed. Correction is different, when Mayo does something I don't like and I need to stop him I might whack the rope in front of him so to tell him thats not what he's sposed to do and its not safe;) If its something he's done wrong but its not dangerous then next time I'll just correct him very subtley and ask him to maybe move back to wear he was!!
 
Abuse and correcting unwanted/dangerous behaviour are two totally different things.

Say Dolly goes to kick out and gets a flick round the backside with the leadrope to discourage her, this isn't abuse. If however I grabbed a shovel and started beating her with it, that would be.

I'm a firm believer in "As little as possible but as much as necessary". If a sharp "Ahhhh!" works, that's what I'll use.
 
puzzles said:
why do you feel the way you do towards punishment and smacking? where did it all stem from and what is the sense you see in it?where do/would you fraw the line between 'abue' and 'acceptable punishment'/'acceptable hitting' (we can treat them as 2 separate topics). why do you smack/punish and what is the effect you hope for/get (and how does your horse react first time and now every time - differently?)

it's very fascinating hearing your points!
Click to expand...

Well. Horses are large and strong animals and in comparison we are not and yet we are supposed to be 'herd leaders'. Dylan, I have had just over 2 months and he is like a little kid - you can't turn your back on him for 2 seconds before he is up to something!! :p He is now starting to test his boundaries and try to invade your space and assert himself, each time he does this I will do one or 2 of the following things, make myself big, raise my voice, smack him (not hard), step into his space and push him back. WHen I do this it teaches him that it is not nice toinvade my space.

My reasoning is that when he does something 'bad' the result will be that he is made uncomfortable and so evenrually learn to stop.



What is your viewpoint Puzzles? :)
 
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mayoguinness said:
Punishment is something you do when someones done something wrong in your opinion so you'll punish them in a horses case that often means a hit or people do things like not giving the horse is feed which to me doesn't make sense as its not going to asssoiciate it and often it will have no idea what its done wrong or why its been hit or not given its feed. Correction is different, when Mayo does something I don't like and I need to stop him I might whack the rope in front of him so to tell him thats not what he's sposed to do and its not safe;) If its something he's done wrong but its not dangerous then next time I'll just correct him very subtley and ask him to maybe move back to wear he was!!
Click to expand...

:D

May i just say that, despite all said (which i duelly - er - dually - oh, whatever - respect) i can't agree more.

I have to congratulate you, as a 13-year-old (ha, i got that right yet? :-) ), you tend to say very wise things. apparently horses have no concept of hitting as punishment. in their eyes, perhaps you weren't aware of their space for a moment, they stepped on your foot and they got a wallop - for all they know they're thinking " now what the hell did you do that for mum? you try to pretend that you presence means safety and you want me to trust you, yet after all we've gone through you go and hurt me for no reason?"

with NH practitioners (and I'm talking specifically about Michael peace and Kelly Marks ditto-ers here) rather than focus on points to improve and punishing what is right and ignoring - somtimes praising - (after all, we don't praise every right move, do we? it just wouldn't be practical) which sets a black and white picture for hroses (supposedly a logical and suitable thing to do), they praise what is right and correct the undesired doings. that is what horses do with each other. they don't punish each other, it is just not a conecept they use nor find efficient. when a horse experiences something unpleasant (i.e. a whipping for refusing a fence), he learns not that refusing was, at that time, wrong but that jumping is an unpleasant experience he would rather not repeat again and will try to avoid from now on, because it threatens his means for survival.
apparently hitting horses loses any trust gained and a hors ecan never fully truat a person who he knows may hit him, for what he know not (Hey that rhymes!)

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and in case someone is thinking "well, if you just opened up this topic so you could have your say and then yell at anyone who disagrees-"

i haven't. i truly want to know what you think.

:-D
 
Both of ours would get a smack for bad manners, ridden and on the ground.

Horses will punish each other by kicking, biting or driving them out. Punishment (I think)is associating a certain behaviour with a reprimand.
 
I have smacked Red before because sometimes he forgets where his manners are and can be menacing and vicious about it. Tbh, the only time I can remember giving him a proper smack is when i'm picking his feet out and he snatches them away and tries to strike me with them. Whilst he is still doing it, not after, as I am a firm believer that timing is essential, he will get a firm; but fair, smack on his belly.

I also use physical punishment if a horse rears towards me, especially, in hand, they will get a 'whip' with the lead rope on the under neath of their belly.

However, recently, I have introduced the other side of things where I praise good behavious and ignore bad behaviour. Unless it becomes dangerous where I will take matters into my own hands.

I don't "smack" with vicious intent, it's merely a warning; and, i'm thankful to say, i have never had to give more than a warning.
 
puzzles said:
they praise what is right and correct the undesired doings. that is what horses do with each other. they don't punish each other, it is just not a conecept they use nor find efficient.
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Hmm... so how would you 'correct' a stallion coming at you with teeth bared? He grabbed me before 'correction' was an option; so he got a smack (punishment, by your definition).

Barging *can* be corrected as it happens... I wouldn't punish a horse that was barging me; I'd correct it.

Horses certainly do punish one another - for example, a low-ranking mare who tries to stick her oar in higher up in the herd will be driven away *and kept away* until she stops challenging and takes her lowly place in the herd again.

All depends on what you define as punishment, really...
 
apparently hitting horses loses any trust gained and a hors ecan never fully truat a person who he knows may hit him, for what he know not (Hey that rhymes!)
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I'd disagree with this. I've had Dolly since she was 2 (she's now 7!) When she was about 3, she decided to test me and as I was brushing her tail, she took a good aim at me with a hind leg. She got a good wallop round the bottom and a verbal telling off. Since then she's never offered to kick again and certainly trusts me - she'll lead anywhere, let me handle her and touch her all over, ride anywhere, go in front or behind on a ride, etc etc etc. I believe I'm fair with her and she knows that breaking one of the four rules listed in my first post will result in action, hence she doesn't break them.

If she starts thinking about barging (for example!) and I raise a finger or stand up straighter, she'll normally reconsider and not barge.

BUT correction of bad behaviour must happen immediately otherwise it's not worth it. This morning Dolly barged past me out of the stable and by the time I caught up with her, she'd been gone nearly 30 seconds. If I'd smacked her, she wouldn't really have connected the barging with the smack, so I just haltered her, took her back to the stable and walked her in and out a few times to reinforce the desired behaviour.
 
Showjumper said:
"As little as possible but as much as necessary".
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I've not heard that before but I like the saying very much and I feel it sums me up. If I can I will always use more subtle methods but if I needed something immediate then I would and have hit. Having said that I don't hit hard and I would never hit after the event as then the horse would not understand it.

I believe that horses understand immediate cause and effects otherwise how else would they learn herd behaviour. I know that hitting isn't the most natural aid for them but I feel most horses understand even if indirectly.

I think the most important thing to remember is that horses don't hold grudges so behaving around them negatively as a response for something even a minute ago would be foreign and confusing/disconcerting to them.

Or that is what I feel/have been led to believe. :o
 
puzzles said:
:D


that is what horses do with each other. they don't punish each other, it is just not a conecept they use nor find efficient. when a horse experiences something unpleasant (i.e. a whipping for refusing a fence), he learns not that refusing was, at that time, wrong but that jumping is an unpleasant experience he would rather not repeat again and will try to avoid from now on, because it threatens his means for survival.
apparently hitting horses loses any trust gained and a hors ecan never fully truat a person who he knows may hit him, for what he know not (Hey that rhymes!)

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Click to expand...


But ;) if for instance a horse (called Bob!) in a herd in the field for example, gets too close to another horse (say Frank) then Frank will either move away, flatten ears, kick out, wheel around and mock bite Bob.

The result is that Bob generally moves out of Frank's space. Isn't Frank telling the invading horse 'hey, my space, get out that's not polite or nice?'
 
I type so slowly. :o Re:
apparently hitting horses loses any trust gained and a horse can never fully trust a person who he knows may hit him
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I also disagree, I know most horses will often trust people more where they feel settled that they have a place and they know the exact consequence for every action. I agree that trust would soon be lost for someone who is inconsistant as the horse would not know what to expect but as long as the correction was consistant and non-abusive I would imagine that most horses would feel very content with that person.
 
I have seen mares punish foals. Foaly wants to play, mum doesn't. Mum warns foaly (ears back, gerroff type body language) and foaly ignores her. Mum threatens (turn hindquarters, swish tail - real 'do that again and I'll kick you' type stuff). Foaly once again carries on regardless - and mum lets rip. She'll bite, kick, chase foaly right out of her space and keep him out. That is punishment; a horse that's pushed out is a vulnerable horse. Foaly says sorry, mum lets him come back. It happens all the time in herds.

As for hitting a horse losing his trust; that depends on how, why and when the horse was hit. It did no harm at all to my relationship with Andy to thump him for grabbing me; he has no trust issues at all.

Now, if I'd hit him without good reason, or if I'd continued to hit him after the situation had been resolved... then yes, trust would be lost. But the punishment fit the crime in his case - and as a result, his trust and respect for me as his handler actually benefitted from what happened. Had I not put him back in his place, he'd be walking all over me by now.
 
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