Punishment

puzzles said:
:D

May i just say that, despite all said (which i duelly - er - dually - oh, whatever - respect) i can't agree more.

I have to congratulate you, as a 13-year-old (ha, i got that right yet? :-) ), you tend to say very wise things. apparently horses have no concept of hitting as punishment. in their eyes, perhaps you weren't aware of their space for a moment, they stepped on your foot and they got a wallop - for all they know they're thinking " now what the hell did you do that for mum? you try to pretend that you presence means safety and you want me to trust you, yet after all we've gone through you go and hurt me for no reason?"

with NH practitioners (and I'm talking specifically about Michael peace and Kelly Marks ditto-ers here) rather than focus on points to improve and punishing what is right and ignoring - somtimes praising - (after all, we don't praise every right move, do we? it just wouldn't be practical) which sets a black and white picture for hroses (supposedly a logical and suitable thing to do), they praise what is right and correct the undesired doings. that is what horses do with each other. they don't punish each other, it is just not a conecept they use nor find efficient. when a horse experiences something unpleasant (i.e. a whipping for refusing a fence), he learns not that refusing was, at that time, wrong but that jumping is an unpleasant experience he would rather not repeat again and will try to avoid from now on, because it threatens his means for survival.
apparently hitting horses loses any trust gained and a hors ecan never fully truat a person who he knows may hit him, for what he know not (Hey that rhymes!)

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Thanks, I think four years with Mayo qualifies me to come over a little at least of knowing what I'm talking about just not in his company;) My age has very little to do with it though, I can take no more credit then someone twice my age, I've had a good horse teacher is all:o :cool:
 
If Honey barges, bites, kicks, strikes out at me, snarls her teeth at me she would get a smack with my hand under her belly, and a sharp "NO!" from me.
But whilst im riding if she does something stupid (bronc, rear, buck, try to bite me --she bites my feet if she gets impatient--) she will get a tap with the whip and then she will know that shes done wrong and wont do it again.

I once went to this new show that was held, and Honey tried to bronc so i yelled at her "Dont you even think about it MISSY!!" then gave her a tap with the whip, and someone that i didnt even know, walked up to me, and told me to stop abusing my horse, Like what the hell?, and me being me, gave her a few words of my own, How was i ABUSING my pony?:confused:
 
Mia-Cavalla said:
But whilst im riding if she does something stupid (bronc, rear, buck, try to bite me --she bites my feet if she gets impatient--) she will get a tap with the whip and then she will know that shes done wrong and wont do it again.
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As much as I understand why you'd do this, and spur of the moment, other punishment isn't on hand etc. But I feel that tapping with the whip (when riding anyhow), is giving mixed signals to what the horse would already associate a tap of the whip would mean...
 
i will give a firm but fair smack if the horse is doing something it shouldnt, but it has been scientifically proven (some how!) that if you dont 'punish/correct' the horse within 4 seconds of it comminting the 'crime' it wont associate the punishment with it, which is when the horse may start to loose trust in you if done on a regular basis. The worst i have ever punished a horse was when i was putting a water bucket back in a stable, when the horse spun round pinned me against wall and kicked me straight in the stomach. I kicked her :s (not hard, before anyone starts reporting me to the ILPH just a small tap to make her realise it was wrong, as my hands were full and i felt it necessary to let her know its not acceptable to do that sort of thing, needless to say she has never done it again, and she still loves me!!! i dont feel it is right for people to smack their horse repeatedly, one firm tap / flick of a leadrope etc. any more and the horse will not associate it.
 
Sammii said:
As much as I understand why you'd do this, and spur of the moment, other punishment isn't on hand etc. But I feel that tapping with the whip (when riding anyhow), is giving mixed signals to what the horse would already associate a tap of the whip would mean...
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Yeh but she only does that whilst were out hacking, so when shes schooling shes as quiet as a lamb and does nothing wrong so i dont carry a whip then, and when were jumping i hardly need to use it as shes so forward going, the only time i need to use it is when she needs to "speed up" towards the jump or has jumped too far off etc.
 
I'm in the camp of 'as little as is needed '. Punishment shouldn't be too much of an issue if the rules have been established with everyday consistent handling, but the bottom line is safety for the handler, and protecting the horse from having a reputation as dangerous.
My rule is to never punish in anger, on the rare occasion when a horse of mine has made me mad, my reaction has been to quietly finish whatever needed to be essentially done and walk away, rather than shout or whack. My mare was in the early days, testing the bounderies and uncharacteristically bit me on my thigh, causing extensive bruising, I immediately stepped forward, made myself big and pinched her chest hard. That done, she looked at her usually easy-going mum in complete surprise and we carried on doing what we were doing, incident sorted and forgotten.Never did it again.Usually, I correct by strong body language and moving their feet and a firm simple instruction that they understand,no yelling confusing tirades.If riding, I correct immediately with a strong seat to convey that I'm in charge here :rolleyes: and if needed a sharp, but light whack on the shoulder, which surprises them so much that they think 'OOOOO ,she's not happy, O-kayyyyy'
What I disagree with, is people who whack and shout unfairly and people who use excessive violence.I have been told of a guy at our yard who used a broom to hit his horse with and the woman who threw a brick at someone else's horse in its stable :eek: Can't see any defence for that, thats just abuse.
 
Well, i have to disagree with the 'punishing a horse will make them lose their trust in you'

I have been around many horses that try to bite, kick etc but as soon as you stand up to them, give them a tap or a pinch on the muzzle they soon learn that it is unacceptable and respect your space and not to invade it.

Take tonight for example, tara is forever searching in my pockets for polos or carrots, and because I didnt have any I showed her my hand and she bit my finger :eek:

I gave her a short sharp smack on her neck and she never once after that stuck her nose near my pocket, within a few seconds she was following me around the school quite happily, ears forward, respecting my space.
 
I smack Skye very very rarely, once twice since I've owned her I think. When I did have give her a smack (a light tap with my hand) I yelled "OI" at her.

Now when I yell "OI" that's her sign to stop acting like an idiot. She's very sensitive to noise, because that's how I get her to change transition, give me space, etc.

Saying that though, if a horse that doesn't listen to you verbally is invading your space, you don't have much of an option but to use force to get your space back.
 
I do discipline Ebony when necessary, and usually I use my voice and she'll understand that I'm unhappy. I never ever really hit her, not unless she tries to kick another horse which is something that she understands is not gonna earn her any extra cookies; her owner and I put a lot of time into working her around other horses so that she's comfortable, and now she will only pin her ears. Occasionally she will try to kick but I usually catch it before it happens. If she does something that she knows that she is not supposed to do she will get a smack. For example, she knows that she is not supposed to rub her head against people when she's itchy, so if she tries it then she'll get a smack and a resounding 'no'. She'll back off, glare at me, and turn up her nose and rub against the tree instead.
 
Honestly, I rarely hit my guys. HOWEVER, I'm not opposed to it whatsoever, if the action merits a smack. If anyone of my horses reacted aggressively towards me, ie, coming at me with teeth, or rearing in the pasture, you can be damn sure that they'd get a smack. What happens out in the field-when they get told off by alphas or by other herd members, is brutal at times. They can tolerate a sharp slap and learn from it.
 
depends on the horse for me.

Mouse will get a smack if he's doing something potentially dangerous for no apparent reason. If I can see why he did something, then I usually let him slide. (ie dog coming near him while I'm picking out back hoof & he slams it down - I know he's balancing himself to prepare for the dog, which he doesn't like, & will need that leg to take defensive action, if needed)

I won't smakc my pony as she's 3/4 wild & it would cause more problems than it's worth.

I prefer to send them away, NH style. they tend to understand that better than a smack.
 
They last time I gave Moo a smack was when she bit me a couple of weeks ago, she was excited to see me as I had been away for two weeks and she bit me - not acceptable so she got an elbow in her face. The last time I smacked her before that..... can't even remember. I elbowed her on the principle that I was matching her reaction with mine, not punishing her. She got the message. I think thats different from, as has been mentioned, an intended punishment in human terms for a misdemenour such as wondering in your space and treading on your foot. In that situation there can be no point punishing with, say, a smack as the action wasn't intentional. Much better to chase them away somehow.

To be honest I have no problem with my horse, she is revoltingly well behaved 99.9% of the time - its other people's horses I have to deal with (yard rule says you have to bring in the last horse in the field if your horse is second to last) Its much more difficult to chastise someone elses horse as often the owner doesn't see the behaviour as unacceptable. Case in point, one horse I often end up having to bring in has no concept of personal space and has been allowed to drag her owner everywhere for the last four years, is consequently difficult and sometimes dangerous to lead. So, in my opinion, not to blame for the atrocious behaviour. So not to be 'punished' but 'corrected'. Not once have I smacked, touched or shouted at this horse in this 'correction' - yet she leads better now.

One thing thought, I would never, ever smack a horse as a punishment while I was riding - I think its totally out of context and reinforces the idea of man as a predator - which surely we want to get out of them! If baggage does something unacceptable she will find herself doing something pointless like turning circles on the spot or going backwards for ages. And I would never carry a whip - I think its temptation....
 
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I personally think a lot of punishment as applied to horses by horse owners can be more about relieving the owner's frustration than teaching the horse anything. Does slapping your horse when its naughty make it behave better in the long run or do you have to keep on slapping for the same old things?
It also often only addresses the symptoms of any issue rather than the causes, and can breed resentment and mistrust, and make some horses nervous or headshy. Not all by any means, but that's a tribute to how tolerant horses are.

I've always tried hard never to lose my temper or hit horses, and if something is going wrong with one I try and do something that will add to the situation, which often involves moving its feet to where you want them rather than where the horse does. However if I was put in a situation of danger then I'd have no compunction in doing whatever I needed to do to stay safe, anything else would be stupid.

I also don't buy in to the 'horses do it to each other so why shouldn't we' argument. Physical contact is usually the very last thing that happens between horses as wasting energy fighting and damaging each other doesn't make sense in evolutionary terms other than perhaps for breeding stallions. We're also ostensibly a lot more intelligent and should be able to do better :)
 
It depends by what you mean 'hit'. I see hitting as with a fist, and hard! When I read hit I was like :eek: never hit a horey and in that sense i wouldnt! I would smack,not hard though like a tap, if they bit or kicked, being bad. I would never tap round their head anywhere. Saying that, the horse I have been rididn, I have never hit! If he barged i just pushed him back. Hes very big on voice commands, so I'm not sure I would now!
 
Again, the word 'smacking' can mean different things to different people.. some will go for the face with raised arms and be quite hard and unjust (i.e hitting on the face once a runaway horse has been caught :eek: ), to others, smacking is a hard tap with the back of the hand on the body, or a quick reactive flick in response to a bite... semantics I suppose. Maybe "chastise" would be a better term...? If so, it seems that most of us are on the same page ;)

We are intelligent beings (supposedly) therefore should be able to assess the right time to chastise. Some would have told my pony off when he spun around (in-hand) near a clicking electric fence yesterday. I just think he was awfully brave to not run away and a credit to him that he wanted to stay with me!! If I'd told him off in any way, then that would have given him more reason to want to run away.. cos scarey things happen near the clicking, stinging zappy thing!! :p

Moomin, I feel the same about handling other people's horses - I won't tolerate biting, kicking though and I am stern about my space. The chastising here would be a pinch or an OI (have got my mother's sharp voice so it's quite effective!), then give lots of praise when they've understood I'm not their mum and stand quietly! It's amazing how quickly they learn really!

CW is like Moo... 99% of the time sickeningly well behaved (yay ;) ). He came from Ireland and was very wary of men with sticks or whips.. so it would have been counterproductive to hit him at any point at the beginning of our relationship. He now allows me to use lunge whips etc as he knows he won't get unfairly treated. The most I've had to do with him was a backhanded slap on his side if he's dangerously in my space, or a light pinch on the chest... he's a quick learner :D .

StormArion said:
If anyone of my horses reacted aggressively towards me, ie, coming at me with teeth, or rearing in the pasture, you can be damn sure that they'd get a smack.
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Ooooooooo yes... (although I wouldn't want to be close enough to an aggressive horse in the field :p .. so I would normally employ 'big', driving movements!!!)
 
Ptaty70 said:
K8... cross posted!!! agree that words mean different things to diferent people!
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hehe no problems, glad I am making sense though! i wont 'tap' unless absolutely necessary, actually as i said not sure i would! i will give a tap with a whip on the shoulder when riding if something bad gos on (again not with current horse, i dont even ride him with a whip)
 
I can honestly say I've kneed my horse in the chest (as hard as I could manage) and I don't regret it for a second.

I wouldn't hit him for no reason (although I slap his bum quite frequently - it makes a nice sound and there's no intent so he isn't fussed) but when I'm pinned against the stable door having air squeezed out of me I have absolutely no qualms whatsoever about inflicting as much pain, in as many places as necessary.

As I've had him for three years, I rarely have to physically punish him, he's associated "manners" as being a word that means no eating for example, or a quickly raised hand is enough to back him off, even though he's not in the least bit headshy. So perhaps we have moved away from punishment into correction, I don't think about it tbh, just noticed his behaviour is much improved.
 
A slap with the back of the hand won't have any effect unless it's done hard enough to cause some discomfort to the horse. If it isn't then it's more about the handlers feelings and possibly loss of temper.

Without being too precious about it I personally feel there's a principle involved too. I do expect horses to behave 100% all the time when I'm with them though and if they don't then I do my best to sort it out constructively.
 
Yann said:
A slap with the back of the hand won't have any effect unless it's done hard enough to cause some discomfort to the horse. If it isn't then it's more about the handlers feelings and possibly loss of temper..
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Absolutely and again, it depends on the horse as we are all posting based on the horses we know or have worked with. As CW isn't used to being hit, a slap with the back of the hand -if done immediately- does the trick as with him it's the sound and the surprise. Agree that with some more difficult horses, you need to be a lot stronger if they are being potentially dangerous (like poor Daffy being squished like a fly... I don't think a slap with the back of the hand would work in that case.... ;) ).

In my eyes, I am and SHOULD be the most important element and will do anything I can to protect myself! In those situations I think we all would - it's the other non-dangerous 'naughty' situations where some differ in their chastising or corrections, which I think has made this an interesting thread.
 
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